There’s been a lot of talk about the use of the Archives and Archivists listserv, #thatdarnlist, and blogs rather than listservs as fora for discussion by SAA members. I’m only going to address one small part of this larger debate: why I don’t post to the Archives and Archivists listserv.
1. Difficult to access: Although this has been made easier with the advent of the new website, A&A has always been difficult to sign up for. It is located on a part of the website away from anything else, meaning that you would have to go to that page specifically wanting to sign up for “Email Discussion Lists.” You also need a separate login and password from the credentials that govern your SAA profile to be able to sign into the listserv system. In an age where integration of web services is becoming the norm, a separate system is just not something to which people want to go.
2. Intimidating personae: Once you get people to subscribe to A&A, however, many aren’t posting. In any forum of communication, there are going to be people who are more active than others. But when those people dominate the conversation to the exclusion of others, then it becomes a problem. Is it entirely their fault? Of course not. People also need to just plunge into the conversation. However, if they feel that posting something to the list is not worth the resulting conversation, they won’t do it.
3. Listservs are Web 1.0 technology in a Web 2.0 world: As has been mentioned on A&A, it has been in existence since 1989; listservs themselves have been around since 1986, making them one of the first methods of communication over the internet. They have an important place in the communication of some organizations, but those are primarily more technical ones. Most of the lists to which I subscribe that have actual discussion are in the Linux community. More and more, people today aren’t thinking of listservs as locations of discussion; even fora, that staple of mid-1990s Internet life, are being pushed aside. Discussions have moved to blogs, to Twitter, to Facebook, and to other social networking sites. I personally read A&A through an RSS feed in my Google Reader, so that it can be with the rest of the information I regularly consume. However, I didn’t know that was possible for the longest time, having to search through the back messages to find it. Perhaps if this was made more public, more people would sign up and perhaps some of those people would contribute. I understand the need for a place of discussion sanctioned officially by SAA; I just don’t think people should be surprised when conversations happen in more than one location.
Finally, I welcome any discussion about this topic that may occur. I, like most blog owners, would never delete comments that simply disagrees with my opinions.
They may be 1.0 and losing popularity, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t effective as a tool. Going beyond A&A, it–like you mention–depends on the topic matter (my code4lib sub gets way more hits than others), but how they’re accessed is also important. I found that Gmail is much more conducive to discussion on a listserv than Yahoo! Mail. Also, code4lib gets way more hits than use4lib.
It’s unfortunate that not all listservs provide back-access (ahem, UNC listservs and their darn opt-in instead of opt-out).
Because its older technology, people don’t think about developing them as much, but I would certainly prefer a listserv discussion over say, Blackboard forums.
Sometimes all you need is a clock and not a clock app.
And to relate it back to what you were saying–I know I repeated a lot–is there any way to use outside tools to develop it to suit your needs more?
@Brian: Yeah, some listserv software is definitely better than others. I really dislike the Lyris listserv manager that both UNC and Archives and Archivists use; I’m pretty sure thats a fairly locked down piece of software, but I’m not really sure. Mailman, which is used by a lot of open source projects, has a much cleaner and easier to use interface and allows you to browse the whole archive of posts, arranged by thread or date. And, since its open source too, if someone wanted to, they could improve it. For an example, see: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad
Also, you seem to be making broader generalizations about why it’s not used rather than why YOU don’t use it. despite the title. Are you personally intimidated about contributing, etc? You seem to be able to subscribe, access, and search through it fine.
Well, the first one is more of a broad statement, but the second two are why I don’t use it personally. I’ve definitely thought about replying to the listserv, but when I thought about the time it would take to write up a post, get into the listserv, and get into discussions with all the people who respond, I just didn’t feel like it was worth investing that mcuh time and peace of mind. I’m also more comfortable in the world of web 2.0 tools. But I also think that’s why a lot of people don’t use it, too.
I’m a recent lurker (of a couple of weeks) for several reasons. One, I’ve only been in the field a couple of years and when the majority of people responding to questions are much more experienced, I don’t feel there is much more I can add. Two, it often feels that people of my generation (as well as the tools we use to communicate) are denigrated. Now, I don’t mind criticism. It helps us grow. But instead of asking us why we use Twitter, blogs, etc, and trying to learn more about us in a friendly manner, there are some that simply attack and make assumptions. The people I chat with in other formats are in a similar situation to myself: young, struggling to make ends meet, just beginning to carve out their career, and familiar with the new technologies. That doesn’t seem to be the case on A&A which is probably why I don’t post or contribute. Not only that, many posters come off as complainers. They ask, “Why can’t we do it the way this other listserv does it? Why can’t we do it like we used to? Why can’t so-and-so post HERE and THERE just for my benefit?” There seems to be little action taken to change things except whining. And who wants to read that/contribute to that?
This question may be a bit off the general topic of the blog post, but how do you read A&A in Google Reader? It would be great to be able to see it along with the blogs I follow.
Ah yes. Sorry about that. For those of you who don’t know, the RSS feed for A&A is http://forums.archivists.org/read/rss?forum=archives&rev=0.92 . You will probably have to enter your username and password, but it works well for me.
The anon above is right. The most prominent posters on A&A have made their distain for newcomers and younger archivists known. The list has become dominated by a few personalities that treat the place as their own, rather than as the open, official SAA forum the list should be. I am surprised the list still exists, and would hope SAA would move to a newer sort of communication presence.
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Thanks Ben!
I quit the A&A list months ago because the noise ratio is so high. As a listowner, you can certainly modify things to reduce the noise (automatically limit the number of messages per day, limit the number of messages per person, etc.). But it seemed that the owner of that list didn’t want to exert that kind of control.
I think the issue about email lists (“Listserv” refers to specific software) is a generational thing. Many younger folk don’t like email in general, but some of us (I’m 54) prefer email to other methods of communication. I like many email lists (I run 5 of them, including one with over 2,000 subscribers), but if poorly or neglectfully run, they may not be worth the time.
It’s been a problem for years. When I first subscribed, I came in right in the middle of the annual renewal of the “MLS vs. Certified Archivist” war. I almost unsubscribed immediately. It has gotten somewhat better, as some of the hostile posters have stopped posting. But it’s still entirely true that it’s dominated by a handful of people, and that handful doesn’t like being criticized about the content that they’re posting, even if what they are posting is off-topic, hostile, etc. Now, I’m not sure using #thatdarnlist on Twitter to vent about it is really constructive or professional, even if I think the people who use it happen to be correct (and hilarious, I might add).
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it’s worth noting, particularly for us archivists, that preserving data (in an accessible form) is not a high priority for many 2.0 sites. i like using these technologies, too, but it is often hard to find past information/posts.
i’m sure this can be done with 2.0 apps, but i just worry that it often isn’t.
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What I find interesting are the comments that your post (and Maureen’s) have generated. The level of defensiveness and the immature responses are so unprofessional that I find it almost humorous. I’m not necessarily new to the profession or in my 20s (7 years as an archivist and four as a teacher before that), but I don’t think that the divide is necessarily just generational. I think that folks who defected recently or in the past just have a different idea of what professional means. It doesn’t have to be dry, yet it also doesn’t have to involve posting photos about flowers. Folks are too emotionally invested in the A&A Listserv and are unable to take criticism of it well. They seem to feel as if we are criticizing them. I would welcome a different sort of forum.